Kevin Should Be Happy

[okinomiyaki-sensei]

[Edited on 8-31-2005 by okinomiyaki-sensei]

[pierrecoghill]

cherry peel was a very personal album, and kevin has said that he stopped writing personal things after some critics made him feel insecure, and that is the reason he started writing albums about characters.
so The Gay Parade and the fantastic yearnings of Coquelicot are all stories about characters that do not exist, Kevin wrote songs that way so that if he was attacked critically he would not be personally attacked, it would just be his songs which were not connected to his personal feelins and emotions.
basically those songs were much more shallow as far as songwriting goes.
with kevin's success he has become more resiliant to critics and he is comfortable now with putting himself outthere all the way, he can write songs about how much he loves his wife and how happy he is.
so i do not understand why you are asking either of these questions
Why does he seem to be angrier and at times somewhat aggressive now?
Why does he seem more serious and artful, and yet less emotionally engaging?

he is happier than he has ever been it seems to me by the songwriting and this is probably hte most emotionally engaging since cherry peel.
whereas gay parade and coqlicot were not emotional at all.

i hope that kevin never makes songs the way he used to, because he might deny us something much greater. look at the beatles, what if they had done sgt pepper and magical mystery tour and then their next album had been another pschedelic symphonic type of album? we never would have had the white album which is completely a different style of music but one of the greatest albums of all time.
you asking kevin to record more gay parade songs is like mike love telling brian wilson to stop doing pet sounds/smile and write another surf song.

[officeparty]

Originally posted by pierrecoghill
i hope that kevin never makes songs the way he used to, because he might deny us something much greater. look at the beatles, what if they had done sgt pepper and magical mystery tour and then their next album had been another pschedelic symphonic type of album? we never would have had the white album which is completely a different style of music but one of the greatest albums of all time.
you asking kevin to record more gay parade songs is like mike love telling brian wilson to stop doing pet sounds/smile and write another surf song.

i agree with this whole-heartedly. i love the way music develops and i love everything of montreal turns out with as well as the old things too.

[Edited on 8-27-2005 by officeparty]

[tulipbaroo]

i think, yes, you are a jerk for asking these questions.

maybe not a jerk, but i think this is a stupid topic. but that's all i had to say, so continue.

[timellison]

If one suffers as a result of a spiritual discipline which they have chosen for themselves (particularly if there is a point to the discipline, as in discipline designed to build one's internal strength or sacrifice for the benefit of others), the suffering is noble.

But people also suffer just through the process of growing up. It is natural to reject things from your past - ways of thinking, ways of behaving - that were immature and ultimately caused you pain. People can endure the pains of growing up in a noble way. If this noble endurance is not a spiritual discipline that they have chosen for themselves, however, but rather a spiritual discipline developed through necessity (because of the difficulties of life), than it is silly to ask these people to continue to suffer.

[okinomiyaki-sensei]

[Edited on 8-31-2005 by okinomiyaki-sensei]

[The_new_improved_Kirk]

Originally posted by tulipbaroo
i think, yes, you are a jerk for asking these questions.

maybe not a jerk, but i think this is a stupid topic. but that's all i had to say, so continue.

This is the only post short enough for me to read here. So im agreeing with mr. tulip.

[okinomiyaki-sensei]

Me too.

[kartoonz]

I also think this is a good discussion. While I don't really feel like participating in it quite yet, I will say this... I don't think Kevin is "angry" on the new albums as much as he is "sassy". Discuss.

[auxiliaryoctopus]

Yeah, I agree with that. Angry too maybe.

I think that he has put out some of the best records ever, and still gets panned/ignored by the critics, especially Coquilicot and Gay Parade. Those had to take a lot of work. I wonder sometimes if Kevin didn't leave behind his former style as a indirect response to critisisms often assigned to him (ie too retro, too ridiculous, too opaque, too happy). The irony is they've gotten a lot more attention now.

But, I feel the same way a lot of people do here. For me there is nothing like Of Montreal from Early 4-tracks through Big Oil. It's just an AMAZING body of music. But I don't get it post-SPITA. I enjoy it sometimes. It's "fun." But I have a harder time relating to the sound of it. I'm happily married too, and not particularly lonely right now, so I guess I know where he's coming from, but I find pre-SPITA OM much more, um, diggable.

[oblio]

screw feelings, let's dance!

[vacantmoon]

the watusi..

the twist..

the ringo..

the kevin barnes!

(hey where'd claude go..)

[timellison]

Originally posted by auxiliaryoctopus
I wonder sometimes if Kevin didn't leave behind his former style as a indirect response to critisisms often assigned to him (ie too retro, too ridiculous, too opaque, too happy). The irony is they've gotten a lot more attention now.

I don't know about too retro. There are a lot of retro elements on Sunlandic Twins.

I don't know about too happy either. I find the newer music MORE happy because it's more dynamite!

[hypecity]

http://www.blacktable.com/images/0412pics/jesus/28000.jpg

[Edited on 3-23-2006 by hypecity]

[Damnit]

MAYBE KEVIN SHOULD KILL YOU. I WOULD IF I WAS BEING CRITISIZED FOR BEING A GENIUS! WHAT THE F*** KIND OF WORLD IS THIS ANYWAYS!?!?!?!?!?!






pracket

[auxiliaryoctopus]

Originally posted by timellison


I don't know about too retro. There are a lot of retro elements on Sunlandic Twins.

I don't know about too happy either.

Yeah, I don't think these things are true at all, but I think they were common criticisms.

[Edited on 8-30-2005 by auxiliaryoctopus]

[kartoonz]

I don't really feel comfortable critiquing on a message board I know the band reads, but... here it goes...

I love of Montreal thoroughly up through Big Oil. That stuff is phenomenal. I love SPITA and ST as well, but I know if it wasn't for my love of those other 9 albums I probably wouldn't even own them. They're really good when it comes down to it -- excellent song craft, insightful and downright amazing lyrics, original arrangements... but something about them just doesn't attract me like the old stuff. Obviously there's the introduction of the dancier sound, which I am usually not a fan of, but I've accepted and learned to like it. Kevin uses those elements tastefully and to great effect. I still miss the organic feel of the old stuff, though. It just felt so alive. I don't really know why the new stuff doesn't have the same impression on me. It could be a number of things. The lack of organic instruments? Could be. I do miss the old snare work. The lack of other contributors? My favorite albums are Gay Parade and Coquelicot, and those are the albums that had the most collaberation. I do know that I miss hearing Dottie in the harmonies. That could be a part of it. But then again, wasn't Bedside Drama mostly Kevin? The switch from analog to digital, maybe? I suppose it's a possibility. I also miss the sort of human fragility Kevin used to sing with that he doesn't use anymore. Whichever of these, if any, is the case, I just don't get the same feeling from the new of Montreal recordings.

But I'm okay with that, and here's why. They have 9 albums that I truly love with all my heart. You know how many other artists have that? Two. The Beatles and Bob Dylan. That's some amazing company. Flaming Lips come close, but everyone else has at most half of that. So Kevin can do whatever the hell he wants. He's definately earned that right. I'll keep following him and the band and I look forward to all new releases and any change in direction he can come up with in that head of his. Death-metal ragtime played on a key-tar? That's fine by me. I'll buy it. I might not like it initially, but Kevin Barnes is a brilliant man. I mean, c'mon, it's of Montreal no matter how it's presented. I'll accept it and probably even like it. If I want Gay Parade, I'll listen to Gay Parade, so I don't need another one -- even though maybe one more would be nice:) But it's not necessary. What's necessary is Kevin persuing what interests him, where he finds passion. I think the worst thing of Montreal could give us is something completely devoid of passion. So bring on the death-metal ragtime key-tars if that's where the passion is.

However, if of Montreal ever releases an album with no artwork from David, my whole collection is going in the trash. :D

Also, I'm interested to see who read through that whole mess. Let me know.

[officeparty]

i read it, and i agree with it all yes :D

[timellison]

Have to respond to the idea of "organic" instrumentation in earlier of Montreal. Electric guitars and electric basses? Electric keyboards are more "organic" if they're cheaper sounding (or older or something)? FWIW, I believe there's (off the top of my head) piano, cello, trumpet, and glockenspiel on Sunlandic Twins, (Acoustic guitar, too, somewheres? Can't remember.)

And re. analog/digital: if you're listening to CDs, you are listening to digital reproduction anyway.

[kartoonz]

Originally posted by timellison
Have to respond to the idea of "organic" instrumentation in earlier of Montreal. Electric guitars and electric basses? Electric keyboards are more "organic" if they're cheaper sounding (or older or something)? FWIW, I believe there's (off the top of my head) piano, cello, trumpet, and glockenspiel on Sunlandic Twins, (Acoustic guitar, too, somewheres? Can't remember.)

And re. analog/digital: if you're listening to CDs, you are listening to digital reproduction anyway.

Actually, there's a big difference between digital recording and digital mastering.

As for the instrumentation on ST, I believe almost everything was synthesized. The cello I know is an exception, and probably the acoustic guitars and I think some bass lines.

As far as organic instrumentation, I would have to argue that an electric guitar or bass is an organic instrument since at the core is acoustical vibration. Compare this to a microchip. Older keyboards actually would have a more organic sound due to how they work. I am not an expert on this and won't pretend to be, but for example the melotron uses tape loops (I think). I don't know what kinds of keyboards of Montreal has used in their older material, but I certainly don't expect them to be all melotrons, or any of them really (interestingly enough, some of the strings on ST sound like a melotron). I meant that the music felt organic, not that every instrument used was completely organic. I don't think it's too difficult to see the jump of Montreal made from very natural sounds to very electronic sounds. In fact, you can pretty much pin-point it (between the songs written around A Pollinaire Rave and the songs written for the rest of SPITA.) I'm not saying it's a step down, although I do prefer the more natural sounds, it's just something different. It must be very limiting feeling tied down with more natural sounds, that could be why Kevin went in the opposite direction. Like I said, though, he does it well, and I look forward to everything this band does, especially the show this Friday. :)

[timellison]

Re. digital: my point is that anytime digital enters the picture - recording, mastering, or reproduction (as w/ CDs), you have a digitized sound. I've never been sure what the point of doing analog recording is if you're just going to have music distributed on CDs. (I know of Montreal records get pressed on vinyl as well.)

Don't really agree with the distinction re. electric guitars. Yes, there is an acoustical vibration, but pickups are not microphones. They don't just amplify the sound of the string. They work via a magnet creating an electronic signal.

I don't know what kind of keyboards of Montreal used to use, but I don't recall ever hearing a mellotron! (Those things are incredibly expensive.) Don't even know what kind of synths they're using now, but maybe they use some analog stuff?

"As for the instrumentation on ST, I believe almost everything was synthesized."

No. The basis of their sound, really, is still electric guitars and electric basses plus keyboards. The only real difference is that there's way more layering (three basses on "Alabee," I believe!) and there's drum machine instead of acoustic drumkit. As I said above, Sunlandic Twins has acoustic guitar ("Forecast Fascist Future"), piano ("October Is Eternal"), glockenspiel (we had a thread about this), cello, trumpet ...

[timellison]

Well, I'm curious - what elements specifically make you think so? The drum machine? The particular keyboard tones?

[timellison]

Those buzzing tones with the portamento? That is fucking classic, dude.

Also reminded listening again that there's that acoustic piano part after the synthesizer solo on this song. So sweet.

[kartoonz]

Originally posted by timellison
Re. digital: my point is that anytime digital enters the picture - recording, mastering, or reproduction (as w/ CDs), you have a digitized sound. I've never been sure what the point of doing analog recording is if you're just going to have music distributed on CDs. (I know of Montreal records get pressed on vinyl as well.)

Recording to analog has a different feel than recording digitally. When the recording is transfered from the analog recording to CD, you are still hearing the product of an analog recording. This is not so with a CD where the original recording was done digitally. True, you lose some of the extreme lows and extreme highs when you tranfer to CD, but it doesn't suddenly transform it into what you would have gotten if you were recording digitally.

Originally posted by timellison
re. electric guitars. Yes, there is an acoustical vibration, but pickups are not microphones. They don't just amplify the sound of the string. They work via a magnet creating an electronic signal.

Yes, it's converted to an electronic signal, but so much of the sound depends on acoustical vibration, manipulation of the strings, the interaction of the vibration with the amps, etc. Compare this to hitting a button and a predetermined sound wave is made. An electric guitar is a very organic sounding thing if you use it as one.

Originally posted by timellison
I don't know what kind of keyboards of Montreal used to use, but I don't recall ever hearing a mellotron! (Those things are incredibly expensive.) Don't even know what kind of synths they're using now, but maybe they use some analog stuff?

I don't think I said they used to use melotrons, I just used it as an example of how a synth could be organic at its heart.

Originally posted by timellison
The basis of their sound, really, is still electric guitars and electric basses plus keyboards. The only real difference is that there's way more layering (three basses on "Alabee," I believe!) and there's drum machine instead of acoustic drumkit. As I said above, Sunlandic Twins has acoustic guitar ("Forecast Fascist Future"), piano ("October Is Eternal"), glockenspiel (we had a thread about this), cello, trumpet ...

Even if the only difference was synth drums, changing a major element like percussion from all acoustic to all synthesized is going to majorly effect the feel of the music. That's not all that's synthesized, though. There are all kinds of synthesized keyboard parts and other synthesized instruments. Among these are a synthesized glockenspiel and what I'm 99% sure are synthesized trumpets.

It's all good, though. Sunlandic Twins is a solid album.

[timellison]

"you lose some of the extreme lows and extreme highs when you tranfer to CD, but it doesn't suddenly transform it into what you would have gotten if you were recording digitally."

Yeah, not saying it does. But I WAS saying that once you use a digital process, you have a sound that's been digitized. Do you not like digital recording in general? I don't see why people would dislike it and yet listen to CDs all the time. Or what's so great about recording in analog and listening to a digitized version of it.

"so much of the [electric guitar] sound depends on acoustical vibration, manipulation of the strings, the interaction of the vibration with the amps, etc. Compare this to hitting a button and a predetermined sound wave is made."

True, and there's LOTS of electric guitar and electric bass guitar on The Sunlandic Twins!

I thought we already confirmed that the glockenspiel was real? It sounds real. Kevin owns a glockenspiel.

Two people are credited with playing trumpets on the album!

There are a decent number of keyboard synthesizer parts on the album, yes.

[The_new_improved_Kirk]

Put what you wrote about kevin back up!!!! I wasn't picking on you or your thread, i thought it was pretty, honest. I'm just not big on the hole fanboy syndrom as its been put.

[The_new_improved_Kirk]

I love everything of montreal has ever done and will continue to do so untill kevin puts something out i don't love. This record did have a "impersonall" feel at first, but the more i listen, the less thats an issue. This record feels just as natural as cherry peal or petite tragedy to me. just via a diferent set of tools. Diferent yes. Worse.....wait for it.......no way
!

[discombobulate]

remember when dylan went electric...now that was crazy.

[jefferoo]

dude, if I was kevin, I'd be pickled.
I gotta say, in my opinion, the older albums ("big oil" and before... by O.M.M.2 ... I guess) were much better than the 2 recent ones. But, there are still moments of awe in the music . All songs are still well-crafted.
And you gotta hand it to him. The sound he has landed (o.m.m.3) is pretty original. when I saw them this past time @ N6, I was kinda like, okay. This is really good. the whole band was playing guitars for the most part (2 basses). The sound was really cool. Also, the new (like the 2 brand new songs they played) songs are relly really good. I think it's just like anything else. he's changing gears and he's settling into a new speed. These past 2 albums are transitional albums, but still good albums, nonetheless.
plus, there were more hot girlies at this show than I've seen in the past.
:cool:

[Edited on 9-1-2005 by jefferoo]

[kartoonz]

Timellison, I don't have my artwork with me, so I never said for sure if the horns synthesized or not. Last time I checked the glock thread it was pretty much agreed upon that it was synthesized, but I just checked back to see BP pretty much confirm it's real. Still, that's two short burts of natural instrumentation amidst a sea of synth keyboards and synth drums, which isn't a bad thing. I feel like it might come across to some like I'm trashing this album when that's not my intention at all. I really dig this album, just trying to discuss what makes it and half of SPITA so much different from previous releases.

As for analog v digital recording, it sounds like you're admitting that a CD that is the product of analog recording will sound different from a CD that is the product of digital recording? Well, if they're different, then why shouldn't some people have a preference for one over the other? I can name a few experienced artists who very much prefer analog over digital recording: Stephen Malkmus, Wilco, The Breeders, The White Stripes... I personally prefer analog as well, as you know, but it's hard to explain why. Digital feels more hollow, like you lose a lot of the guts. It can be used to enhance a certain sound, which is what I believe Kevin achieved on ST whether it was intentional or not, but more often than not I hear very soulless digital recordings. But then again, wasn't Ulysses 010 recorded digitally? That's an album with a lot of guts. Robert is a recording whiz, though. If anyone can bring the guts to a digital recording, it's him.

As for the digitization of an analog recording... with the exception of those extreme frequencies being lost, it sounds the same to me. It's still the product of an analog recording. Like we said, converting a master recording from analog to a digital medium doesn't magically make it the product of a digital recording. It still has the guts of an analog recording, if you can grasp what I'm talking about. I realize my descriptions are not very concrete, and I don't really expect a lot of people to know what I'm talking about. Either you hear it or you don't, and lots of people don't. Let me know what you think about that, but you don't have to post any lengthy rebuttles because at this point I'm ready to agree to disagree.

[kartoonz]

And for those of you just skimming through my posts in this thread, I'm not trashing the new stuff at all. Amazing song craft, original arrangements, brilliant lyrics... It's great stuff. All that lengthy nonsense is just me discussing what makes the new albums different. I'm not a hater!:cool:

[timellison]

Originally posted by kartoonz
As for analog v digital recording, it sounds like you're admitting that a CD that is the product of analog recording will sound different from a CD that is the product of digital recording? Well, if they're different, then why shouldn't some people have a preference for one over the other? I can name a few experienced artists who very much prefer analog over digital recording: Stephen Malkmus, Wilco, The Breeders, The White Stripes... I personally prefer analog as well, as you know, but it's hard to explain why. Digital feels more hollow, like you lose a lot of the guts. It can be used to enhance a certain sound, which is what I believe Kevin achieved on ST whether it was intentional or not, but more often than not I hear very soulless digital recordings. But then again, wasn't Ulysses 010 recorded digitally? That's an album with a lot of guts. Robert is a recording whiz, though. If anyone can bring the guts to a digital recording, it's him.

As for the digitization of an analog recording... with the exception of those extreme frequencies being lost, it sounds the same to me. It's still the product of an analog recording. Like we said, converting a master recording from analog to a digital medium doesn't magically make it the product of a digital recording. It still has the guts of an analog recording, if you can grasp what I'm talking about. I realize my descriptions are not very concrete, and I don't really expect a lot of people to know what I'm talking about. Either you hear it or you don't, and lots of people don't. Let me know what you think about that, but you don't have to post any lengthy rebuttles because at this point I'm ready to agree to disagree.

Aw man, you can't say that the loss of some lows and highs are the only difference between hearing an analog recording reproduced on vinyl versus CD. It's just a whole different sound. I'm sure those artists you mentioned get a good analog sound in the recording process, but I'm sure they've also got pretty big recording budgets. Let's say this about of Montreal recording digitially: Kevin produced a hella great sounding album all by himself. Personally, I think it's his best sounding album (well ... I've only heard six of them, but still) and I would imagine that he's enjoyed the benefits of working with his current setup as opposed to recording on whatever analog tape decks they used in the past.

Half-handed w/ the snipey remark again. Sorry to actually engage people in a dialogue about whether the old music was significantly more "organic" or to respond to the idea that the Sunlandic Twins is almost ALL SYNTHESIZED.

[vacantmoon]

i'm honestly pretty amazed that 'the sound/scope' of ST still gets discussed with such bewilderment you'd think it just came out yesterday. did it get re-released already?

[timellison]

Originally posted by Half-Handed
You are taking that typical approach of trying to get a slide rule out and prove to people that the things they don't like about the record don't exist, but if it feels phoney it feels phoney. People think it feels synthetic or synthesised because they do - I personally think it lacks the sincerity of his earlier stuff. That and the naff sound effects are the things I don't like. Running through a roster of instruments used on the record doesn't prove people like kartoonz wrong, it just sounds lame. Just accept that some people don't agree with you and move on (I am).

It's funny how when someone is enthusiastic about something and writes about their perspective on this thing in some detail, responding to someone else's thoughts (especially when those thoughts include outright mischaracterizations, like the idea that The Sunlandic Twins is "primarily sythesized" or whatever), that people who have a differing perspective will interpret it as proselytizing or something and get mad about it and tell you not to bother offering your perspectives in the future because they don't want to read them.

Kartoonz, as opposed to you, actually likes the album, dude. If I can aid w/ kartoonz or anyone else reading this to dig on the production, instrumentation, and playing on The Sunlandic Twins (as I do) by looking at it a little closer and not making gross generalizations, then I am glad!

FWIW, my posts have been more in response to his (hers?), not yours. I know you don't like the album.

[okinomiyaki-sensei]

Originally posted by The_new_improved_Kirk
Put what you wrote about kevin back up!!!! I wasn't picking on you or your thread, i thought it was pretty, honest. I'm just not big on the hole fanboy syndrom as its been put.

I don`t think anyone who makes music does so because they don`t want people to say that they really really appreciate it. It`s not a syndrome... it`s part of a natural relationship between a performer and the audience.

Why would it bother anyone?

Also... would someone please tell me what would be exciting? I honestly don`t know what is exciting, but I would really like to. Maybe I will just study everyone else`s posts and see which ones get the most attention, then try to make mine more like them...

[Edited on 9-2-2005 by okinomiyaki-sensei]

[thinkingthinking]

I turn the other cheek rather than make retort to your obnoxiousness, half-handed.

[timellison]

Oops, that was me, not thinkingthinking (she is mah wife and was logged in).

[The_new_improved_Kirk]

you two should aslo have a couple's acount. For double team power posting.

[thinkingthinking]

hmmmm.......

(really me this time)