god is a place yaddayadda

[orbitone]

"god is a place you will wait for the rest of your life." i have been reading a lot about religion and spirituality the past two years and i am wondering how people interpret this.

Western: God is a place you will wait for // the rest of your life ... As in, we're all waiting for that distant miracle of everlasting life at the end of the world. The holy spectacle is out there.

Eastern: God is a place you will wait // for the rest of your life ... As in, "The Kingdom of God is spread upon the earth and men do not see it." (A Bible quote, but Christianity doesn't really follow it.) We are already there. We (and everything around us) are the holy spectacle and will always be. This was my initial feeling.

How do you read this?

I am reading a lot about Jesus lately and it's amazing how Buddhist / Hindu his ideas are if you take "I" to be the universal I (very Zen). "Split the stick and you will find me there" and all that. Was he grossly misinterpreted by literalists? I would not be surprised. Anyways, "Thou Art That" by Joseph Campbell is pretty interesting for any fan of Jung, mythology or psychology.

One of my favorite creation stories is how we all used to be Siamese Twins stuck together at the belly button and there were three sexes -- male/male, male/female, and female/female. The gods got tired of this and decided to cut them in two, "but all these creatures did was embrace each other, longing to be one again." That is sweet. ... Then the gods god more annoyed and spread them around the earth so that we all spend our lives searching for our original soulmate.

[Politician]

This isn't something really you form an opinion on.

The workings of existence is so vast and mysterious that being aware of the possibilities is a elevated state. Understanding the nature of energy and matter, that matter may be energy held in place by a higher force blessing it with the magic of being is truly expanding our minds, a step in the climb to transcendence.

To quote Jeff, "so pretty" :)

[William]

I always saw it as: if you're waiting for a miracle then you're going to have to wait for the rest of you're life, because its not coming so you should enjoy life while you have it, and not waste your time waiting for something good to happen. Before the ''God is a place'' line it says ''We wait for our miracle''. I saw it in the sense that it was reffering to God granting Miracles, so either life itself is the only miracle God is going to give you, or God doesn't exsist in the Monotheistic way.

[channelfan]

"And when we break
we'll wait for our miracle
God is a place where some holy spectacle lies
And when we break
we'll wait for our miracle
God is a place you will wait for the rest of your life"

first off lets not forget that one beauty about music/llyrics is that each individual can interpret things by themselves, attaching it to their own life in ways other people may not interpret the same, because they likewise are interpreting the same peice of music to correlate to their mind and life.

but, as for this section of words, this is how i feel. firstly through other lyrics such as aeroplane and king of carrot flowers pt 2, it seems apparent that jeff has some type of faith in a diety. tying these lyrics together i like to think the miracle being spoken of here is the ressurection of our souls after death. "god is a place where some holy spectacle lies" is acknowleding the eternal presence of god spicifically in heaven, that god isn't just an entity or being, but something much larger. so i go along with the idea of "god is a place we will wait for / / the rest of our lives".

[friend]

william, i understood those lyrics in a similar way to you.

waiting for a miracle or god can take one away from real miracles or real oneness with everything (god). also, using words like holy and god can often build a logical criteria that can prevent one from experiencing the togetherness and mysteriousness and love of the universe.

orbitone, i feel that many western religions have been grossly misinterpereted over time. yes, taken too literally- too much reason and relation. it needs to be understood in the abstract realm if it is to be read, not in a good vs. bad way.

[Freakboy]

i dont pay attention to the eastern western whatever, i make my own.
My interpretation of the words
"God is a place
we will wait for the rest of our lives"
i dont think "god is a place / we will wait for the rest of our lives" but that god is the place where we are waiting.
We are waiting for god to come and save us but really we are god and need to save ourselves rather than waiting for miracles that will never happen or a face to appear and answer anything about life cuz god isnt up in heaven he is a monkey in the new york zoo eating swollen purple bananas and marveling at how people can be so nearsighted
(the monkey thing is my philosophy about god) yeah

[friend]

like we are god and what we see and do is god, waiting for god/miracles is suggesting otherwise, causing us to miss miracles/god, seperating us from god, which is hell. be god.

[channelfan]

calling yourself god seems self-centered to me. i mean, basically, it's idolatry. putting yourself before your creator just doesn't make sense. how can we have the power to save ourselves? of course it's easy to think that way, especially in our current american society where situation ethics thrives and heavy pride is abundant. 'do what you want' just doesn't cut it though.
i agree that God is all around us, his work is evident as we look around at his creation. we shouldn't be fooled however, that we can attain satisfaction and meaning in life by proclaiming ourselves gods.
my opinion.

[friend]

hey channelfan. first i will say that i like you before i say anymore, cuz we both know these things can get touchy. so anything i say about this, picture me smiling.

by calling people god, i also mean one with god/universe/spirit/creation. not seperate. made of the same thing, spirit. not putting anyone before or behind anything. the power to save ourselves? everyone has it. connect with spirit. connect with the magic that is all around. the love. i also mean to say that understanding that you are god also means that you understand how small and wonderful you are, a tiny fragment made of love, a little person capable of perceiving infinite things and feelings beyond what our logic allows. i guess i also mean connect with god, let the universe flow through you, understand the will of spirit, listen to your heart, choose love over fear. i also think that god is not something that can be offended, a people trait. i guess i mean that god is in the core of all people, they are born with it. it is the learned selfishness that prevents people from seeing it. so we are god, yet we aren't.

?

[channelfan]

friend. i like you too and thanks for having a proper attitude.
i really don't think we're too far off in some ways. i believe man is created in the image of God, that meaning that we have a spiritual being within our fleshly bodies. i also believe love is essential, as the teachings of Christ portray. obviously i believe in the bible, maybe you do too to some extent. i believe what we are to be is loving servants, to God and to our fellow man, and even our enemies. to me this makes complete sense, unfortunately, many don't see it this way. they feel they are on this earth simply to serve themselves and 'live it up' because you only live once. i believe there is most definately an after life, and to show my faith in God and in the reward he is willing to give, i try to live like he would want me to live, looking to the new testament and the life of Christ as guides and examples. I believe God can and is offended when we do not follow his inspired word. fortunately, if we turn away from the things he doesn't want us to do, he is willing to give us mercy. of course it is through Christ and his death/resurrection that we have this opportunity.
i just hope everyone realizes there is something more to life than the daily monontany we so often succumb to. and i hope everybody searches for the truth and finds peace in their life.

[grimble gromble]

By the way… this is just my opinion (so please don’t take offense!)…

"God is a place where some holy spectacle lies" – we invented the notion of God as a means of coping with our fear… fear of death… fear of the unknown... etc. Believing in a singular God helps us to deal with these fears… it comforts us… it gives us meaning. But the reality is that this holy spectacle we’ve created is just an illusion.

“God is a place you will wait for the rest of your life� – suggests an alternative way of thinking about ‘God’, that ‘God’ is really all around us… in you, in me, in everything. It is the magic of life. It IS life. Yet most of us are just WAITING for something else – some sort of holy spectacle. And it’s sad that most of us will go our entire lives WAITING for this holy spectacle without realizing that ‘God’ is already within us all… has been and always will be.

While believing in the notion of God does help manage our fear, it distracts us from truly living life. We end up going our entire lives in expectation of a miracle, and forget to embrace the miracle of life itself.

[muskogee]

How can one prove that the reality is there is no God? I believe it would be much easier to prove that there is a Creator, based on the fact that there is a Creation. To say that there is a Creation without a Creator is to say that a fully-functioning house, watch, or car could be put together without a designer and manufacturer. Most people would agree that this reasoning is not logical. Yet looking at the magnitude of detail and function in our own bodies and on the earth and universe, some will say there is no design behind these things? I would need proof to believe that. As it is now, there is plenty of proof that there is a Creator.

[friend]

hey channelfan, i don't remember your name, but mine is brian. we are in agreeance for the most part, totally. people have different ways to talk about stuff like this. i don't prefer to use the word god combined with "he", making god a person. i think that is a result of man explaining something he cannot comprehend. i love the core of christianity and christ, the same as i adore the cores of the other religions, philosophies. yeah, live the way "he" would want you to live. to me that is following your heart and feelings without being selfish, without doing things for logic, credentials, etc. i don't feel the idea of god being offended. i do feel the idea of following the flow of things, being good to your feelings, putting the universe before you. if you go against the flow, you will not be in harmony with things. i would imagine that this is similar to what some people describe as being punished by god or having offended god. to me it is like god is always waiting patiently, it's up to you to join the fun/love. it's up to you to be selfish and cause yourself harm/ bring unharmonius vibes towards you.

[friend]

another thought about "god is a place where you wait for the rest of your life". i really like the idea of waiting in the sense of you do the things you want, your actions match the things you say and your thoughts are nowhere else but right here. in between following what you need to do, you have time. you wait. you laugh. you are light. you want to be nowhere else. you wait for a pull. your mind is silent. the love is penetrating you. you have so much to give. :)

[oblio]

i think that jeff mangum is trying to say that people can wait all their lives for some sort of spiritual enlightenment to come and alter their path but the plain old reality of the matter is that no god is going to come and make a big display for you and that no god is going to come and save you. i believe that the theme of the album is that the only "god", if you will, is time. whether in regards to creation or destruction, it is time that dictates the outcomes of our lives.

"And when we break
we'll wait for our miracle
God is a place where some holy spectacle lies
And when we break
we'll wait for our miracle
God is a place you will wait for the rest of your life"

he's saying that when we need intervention in our lives, people wait for some magical force to come and save us, but in reality this is not the case. this also flows well with the whole anne frank references. i guess if you have a literal belief of the gospel's of christ, this can be taken in a literal sense, i do not believe that though.

[channelfan]

what i said in my initial post:
"one beauty about music/llyrics is that each individual can interpret things by themselves,attaching it to their own life in ways other people may not interpret the same, because they likewise are interpreting the same peice of music to correlate to their mind and life. "

considering this, i don't think it's possible for any of us to know exactly what jeff meant. i do think however, that like any type of writing, you can look at the 'context', in this case other songs on the album(s), for clues about the writers ideas. in this case, concerning God, you must consider other songs that he writes on the subject.

kocf pt 2: "I love you Jesus Christ"
you can also read further about his feelings on Christ in the liner notes of the album. but evidently he believes in Christ and believes Christ worthy of his love.

aots: "And when we meet on a cloud I'll be laughing out loud I'll be laughing with everyone I see"
considering the song is about dying, it seems this could be in reference to the ressurection and the joy felt when a soul meets Christ in the sky. this is what leads me to think that (although there are obviously miraculous things throughout the creation) the ultimate miracle we wait for is being ressurected and defeating death.

naomi: "One billion angels could come and save her soul They could save her soul until she shines"
acknowledges the spiritual soul and the fact that it can be saved.

even so, this is still just my opinion and i'm not trying to put words in the writers mouth.


friend said: "i think that is a result of man explaining something he cannot comprehend."

man finds it difficult to comprehend the world around him. difficult because of things we see that are so beautiful, so intricate, so patterned together. man also feels something in connection with these things, something deep inside, a soul, a spirituality. evolution can not account for this spiritual soul in mankind. all these point to the fact that there is a designer, a spiritual deity, who created man 'in his image" meaning the carnal body has a soul that will transend the death of our physical bodies. so although it may be difficult to comprehend, there is plenty of evidence that leads us to realize the truth, that there is a God, and man did not just make him up to explain anything.

[William]

Also remember what he said on ''Live At Jittery Joes'' when introducing the Jesus Christ Song (King Of Carrot Flowers Pts. 2-3) he says ''I'm not one of those..well, I'm just as confused as everybody else''. You can assume when he starts to say ''I'm not one of those...'' hes going to say ''I'm not one of those religous people''..or something along those lines. He says he just thought it'd be nice to sing a song about Jesus as well. Also wondering about his religion - in one magazine interview he said when he was younger he went a Christian Summer Camp. So, you can assume he was brought up Christian - but I doubt he subscribes to one religion since in the Pitchforkmedia interview he talks about his interests in Buddhism, and in another interview about 'On Avery Islan' he says he had a spiritual experience when he was younger when he saw a giant Buddha statue..on avery island.

[friend]

it is not my goal to understand exactly what jeff meant, i'm interested in talking to people about these subjects in general, i'm always thinking about these subjects.

channelfan, i like your interpretations. on the cloud lyric, i imagine that after this life you can meet with people u care about and laugh about all the good times and love and even laugh about the miniscule things u worried about while living. like a heaven or nirvana. or time between lives. i don't think it has to be christ specific, but yeah i'll go with what you said. except for me it could be christ, buddah, something i have no name for, someone i know from this life or someone i never heard of,or everything, or all of the above.

i was just saying that the creator may not be man-like in the way many people would imagine from reading that he created people in his own image. it is not important to me to meet one super loving man when i die. the idea of becoming one with love and all things sounds pretty awesome to me. i wasn't saying that i don't think there is a creator. i'm just not sure there's a bearded dude that is waiting to greet u.

[hook echo]

Channelfan...here's one more:

"Ghost, ghost, I know you live within me..."

He could be talking about the "Holy Ghost," or "Holy Spirit."

[oblio]

from the man himself:

In "underground" music, you'll find people will be kind of freaked by your religious songs more than the truly upsetting lines about domestic violence in "The King of Carrot Flowers Part One," or the whole world's indifference to genocide, the subtext to the Anne Frank songs.
The thing about me singing about Christ, I'm not saying, "I love you Christianity." I'm not saying, "I love all the fucked-up terrible shit that people have done in the name of God." And I'm not preaching belief in Christ . . .
We played a show with Vic Chesnutt a few weeks ago in Athens and he sat on the stage and played for 30 ninutes without stopping and he sang all these songs about how like action and reaction are the closest things to truth in the universe, how he's had all these out-of-body experiences but they weren't supernatural. I though it was the most beautiful thing I'd ever heard. I feel like I'm just one simple person trying to express this stuff, nothing more.

---
remember this album is about issues relating to the death of anne frank and the continuity of life. i dont really think this has anything to do with loving christ.

[oblio]

oh maybe ishould have split it up

In "underground" music, you'll find people will be kind of freaked by your religious songs more than the truly upsetting lines about domestic violence in "The King of Carrot Flowers Part One," or the whole world's indifference to genocide, the subtext to the Anne Frank songs.


ANSWER:
The thing about me singing about Christ, I'm not saying, "I love you Christianity." I'm not saying, "I love all the fucked-up terrible **** that people have done in the name of God." And I'm not preaching belief in Christ . . .
We played a show with Vic Chesnutt a few weeks ago in Athens and he sat on the stage and played for 30 ninutes without stopping and he sang all these songs about how like action and reaction are the closest things to truth in the universe, how he's had all these out-of-body experiences but they weren't supernatural. I though it was the most beautiful thing I'd ever heard. I feel like I'm just one simple person trying to express this stuff, nothing more.

[friend]

i also read somewhere him saying something about that he was fascinated by eastern thought and that buddhism especially was making lots of sense to him at the time. that's how he felt for at least one day.

edit: sorry william i must have missed your above post! i see it now.

what you said.

[Edited on 6-3-2003 by friend]

[channelfan]

i never meant to portray God as a man, rather i explained that the part of us that is "in his image" is our soul, our spirituality.

there is plenty of worthwhile teachings in buddhism, many of which quite frankly are very similar to the teachings of Christ. like anyone who is a "religous" person, i have studied all types of religions and examined their actions and teachings. it's well worth the time and if studied with a truly open mind, will lead a person to the true answer they are looking for.

[friend]

right on.

[grimble gromble]

"God is a place where some holy spectacle lies"

In an interview with Puncture magazine, Jeff is quoted as saying:
"My love for Christ has more to do with what Christ said and believed in. Then the Church put this fucked-up bullshit around it and made it this at-times really evil thing. If you attach man to anything, he's gonna fuck it up somehow."

[orbitone]

great replies - thanks. i am surprised at how many people mention the "miracle ain't comin'" idea. that never occured to me. other than in the "miracle is now or never" sense, which i agree with.


"I dreamed about you, baby
It was just the other night
Most of you was naked
But some of you was light
The sands of time were falling
From your fingers and your thumb
And you were waiting
For the miracle to come."
- Leonard Cohen, "Waiting for the Miracle"

as far as the Ghost thing... "When I started writing "Ghost," the song that goes [he sings] "Ghost ghost I know you live within me," we thought we had a ghost living in the house, in the bathroom. So I locked the door and started to sing to the ghost in the bathroom. But that was sort of like singing about the ghost who we thought was whistling in the other room, and that kept waking me up, and then also a ghost that may or may not live within me. And it ended up being a reference to Anne Frank, too. A lot of the songs on this record are about Anne Frank."

[Politician]

Sometimes music can elevate your mental state and you feel euphoric and closer to the alpha entity. It's a special feeling, one you don't get very often and thus all the more treasured for its rarity. The mundane explanation is one dealing with the release of bodily chemicals and suchlike, not disimilar to the effects of drugs. The euphoria and power induced by 'mass suicide occult figurines' must be truly seductive that they leave their followers in this heightened state. Jesus Christ, instead of being THE son of God may have thought himself A son of God. The love he felt towards everyone is the love of one Godman towards his fellow blessed Godman. Jeff's love for Him can be said to be the love that one Godman feels for the very first Godman.

The expression coined for heroin addiction, 'chasing the dragon' is a resonant one. The hopelessly sad addicts are just chasing God.

Sorry my thoughts are such a mess but logic would be redundant on the 'matter'.

[friend]

i like your thoughts.

[muskogee]

the miracle already came when Jesus rose from the dead. We're all gonna die, even all of our musical and poetical heroes. We all face that. But nobody, not even others who claim to be prophets or religious, have raised from the dead or even claimed that they did. And his claim wasn't empty, there were hundreds of witnesses, many who wrote about it, not in a fictional way, but from a factual and historical perspective. These witnesses match up and even some of those who tried to hide the fact that he did were overwhelmed with the proof. It's a legitimate claim and I would advise studying before you say that Jesus was just like one of us. You may think it foolish, but I have studied it while trying to have an open mind and it makes more sense than other explanations of the spiritual realm. If it was true that he raised from the dead, and you were around when it happened, would you have believed it if you saw the proof with your own eyes? The people that did see it and that wrote about it, what did they have to gain by lying? Unlike alot of today's religious world, early Christians were not in it for the money, in fact they gave up almost all of their possessions to tell other people about the hope we have through Jesus. It wasn't a big "organized" establishment either, like we see today on TV or in Rome and elsewhere. Rather, these were just everyday folk like me and you, who were tortured by the "established" religious folk of the day because they were afraid this new message would disrupt their status.

[grimble gromble]

it is human nature to classify the unknown as miracles. before people understood the science behind severe weather, it was thought of as an act of God. Lightning, tornadoes, hurricanes... all acts of God.

so the 'miracle' of Jesus rising from the dead... was it really a miracle?

here's my own opinion... and PLEASE understand - it is just my opinion - not trying to affend anyone - just sharing my own view...

The 'virgin' Mary became pregnant outside of wedlock. In order to avoid the shame of such a sinful act, she came up with an ellaborate lie, concocting the image of a God who spoke to her and told her that she was pregnant with the son of God. Her story was convincing enough that people actually believed her, and was born the biggest lie of all time - Jesus, the son of God.

Jesus, being born into this lie, probably himself thought he was the son of God, and lived his whole life preaching the word of God. After he was crusified and buried, graverobbers came and took his remains. This unexplainable event became the 'miracle' of Jesus rising from the dead.

[friend]

i feel that jesus was a great and loving man, enlightened and everything. who knows, maybe the greatest. i don't think it's absurd to say he resurrected from the dead. i just don't feel the need to worship him above the buddah, a cosmic mystic, an amazing healer, a zen master, a toltec nagual, a mayan man of knowledge, or muhammed.

[floating norman]

well, i'll have to say the virgin mary making up this elaborate lie is pretty unbelievable. the isrealite jewish prophets like isaiah predicted 1000's of years before the exact nature of jesus' birth, including circumstances, and his life, death, resurrection, and details of all of these, along with other prophets. i guess if i could, i would make myself stop believing all this and rationalize why it didn't happen so i could go on with my life with my own philosiphies and satisfy all my "animal" instincts, but i've already tasted the happiness he gives, and it surpasses anything i've ever found in this physical realm. the quote by jeff m. about how if you attach man to anything, he'll get it wrong, is totally true. it's very interesting to hear all your views, and i respect all of you for sharing and listening.

[patio]

my favorite quote about Jesus is by C.S. Lewis, who said He was either lord, liar or lunatic.

viva la alliteration!

[channelfan]

before people understood the science behind severe weather, it was thought of as an act of God. Lightning, tornadoes, hurricanes... all acts of God.
well there is science behind it, but considering the larger perspective of how the earth is able to replenish itself through the rain cycle, and how wind patterns, ocean currents, placement of earth at a specific distance from the sun, etc, it becomes obviously apparant that there is design to it all. all this couldn't happen by chance. this points to a designer. everything around us points to a designer. the explanation is in the bible. God is the designer.

many many people don't realize the overwhelming evidences that the bible is the legitimate word of God. they don't pay attention to alot of things. for instance, there is a great deal of SCIENTIFIC evidence that proves the bible's truth and legitimacy. we can read about a spherical earth thousands of years before human's finally realized it. we read about an earth suspended on nothing, in times when the most common rationalization about earth was that it was on the back of a turtles back sitting on an elephant or something along those lines. it describes paths in the sea and currents, which science did not realize until thousands of years later. there's much more evidence and i'd be happy to provide more for anyone interested. but it is completely evident, because of these things and so much other proof, that the bible is indeed the inspired word of God.

[dolemites_sister]

I recieved a degree in chemistry and I also took a ton of biology classes. I have a strong belief in God. I think the unknown in science (such as the theories behind the creation of the universe) prove that their is something greater behind all of this. I have learned a lot about evolution, and I believe some parts of it are possible and a lot of it is even documented, but that does not mean that God did not create this universe.

Like someone else already mentioned, the miracle has already occured. Jesus rose from the dead, and now we have nothing to fear! I'm with channelfan when I say I hope this earth isn't all I have to look forward to.

And, I have an article somewhere (I'll have to dig it up), where Jeff Mangum talks about his strong religous beliefs. It is probably the same Puncture article that someone else mentioned above. I'll have to look and see.

j

[dolemites_sister]

I agree that people tend to make organized religion a bad thing. Its always the few who give something a bad name, when there is a lot of good that goes on that NEVER gets reported.

I mean if all I had to pull from was the televangilists I saw on TV, I probably wouldn't be very religous either. Even still... I was in a really bad church when I was a teenager, and I just about gave up completely on being a Christian just because how some of the people acted in the church.
I'm glad I didn't give up.....

j

[hastycolours]

whoever was calling themselves 'god' (first page) and there was a reply about 'putting yourself before your creator being presumptpuous/arrogant' or something I think he was just referring to (being his own god) finding 'god' in himself.

HOWEVER I THINK that everyone should have read the secord or third reply (by POLITICIAN) and said to themselves 'yes, that is true, he's correct' and not replied in the way that the replies happened. everyone gets is figured out themselves. the daniel johnston song dont let the sun go down on your grievances comes to mind for a line or two. yeah though...

[channelfan]

ironically enough, daniel is quoting the bible in that line. ephesians 4:26

[friend]

yeah, that's exactly what i meant, finding god inside yourself.

[floating norman]

when you say finding "god" in yourself, what does that entail? have you found god in yourself, and if so, what's that like? god, or deity, is immortal and all-seeing, all-knowing. i guess you could use the theory of reincarnation to explain that, because you could say we're all searching for "god" and are enlightened once we realize that we are immortal by dying to live again as a different creature, but i would say that would be completely theory with absolutely no science to support it. i'm just trying to understand exactly what it means to find god in yourself. any thoughts, explanations, etc?

[friend]

hey floating norman. i guess i mean knowing with every part of your body that you are connected to all things in the universe. knowing that you are love, as are all things. knowing before thought and words and bodies that you are pure love and light, that you are boundless and can use your will to make your dreams come true. i understand that there is probably a creator or spirit that moves within all things and that this spirit has an all-powerful will. i feel that by losing one's self importance and following their unattached feelings, one can live out "the will of god". i'm not interested in scientific proof of god or of love as i understand that suspending logic and doing away with internal dialouge are key factors in losing one's fear and feeling ungrasping love.

[orbitone]

Originally posted by floating norman
when you say finding "god" in yourself, what does that entail?

these are a bit wordy, as most theosophy / philosophy is, but they sort of explain what is meant by being an individual person, yet being an extension of God, or the universal consciousness. If you are thinking of God as an individual being or superhuman entity that looks down at creation (as most Western religions do), these ideas will not make sense. Many feel (and science often suggests in a physical sense) that the separateness of all things, both physical and conscious, is an illusion, like a hall of mirrors that breaks one entity into many disjointed parts. You are one tiny reflection of the universal consciousness and I am another. Even the physical separateness of objects and the string of passing moments that we perceive are not what they appear to be.

http://www.swami-krishnananda.org/panch/panch_05.html

http://www.teosofia.com/Mumbai/7112fundamentals.html

[hastycolours]

this is what anyone deserves for quoting someone


(maniacal laughter off in distance)

[staralfur]

there was a discussion on the old board, i think, that approached religion as simply being a kind of light, a connecting force in the somewhat abstract concept of an unwavering band of light contained in everyone. jeff mentions something in the liner notes of aeroplane about "endless endless" and all things containing a white light..
sigur ros, i think, is one of the most spiritual bands out there, and they sort of take those unwavering-light ideas from a rather unknown culture, Essilian. there was an interesting article tracing their lyrics back to this culture on a sigur ros news site, this is part:

In Essilian mythology, light was the source of everything. People were born of light and remained immortal as long as they upheld nature and light. The preferred communication of scholars and monks was thought and telepathy, which they understood as the pathway of light that bound the minds of all. But for the sake of posterity, they recorded their thoughts in Essil, the language named for light itself.

i think there's something to be said for that. i think it goes beyond some simple primitive knowledge that the sun grows the grass and the animals eat the grass and the humans eat the animals..i think there is a light, in every one and every thing, and that's just as spiritually fulfilling as mass rites and such.
it's not so much about god as just about life and connection and everything in its right place. faith. faith in light.

[orbitone]

yes - that was from a kurt vonnegut book called "breakfast of champions." he is a real cynic, so it really stunned me. i am lazy so here is a part i found on the net...

"His situation, insofar as he was a machine was complex, tragic, and laughable. But the sacred part of him, his awareness, remained an unwavering band of light.

"And this book is being written by a meat machine in cooperation with a machine made of metal and plastic. The plastic, incidentally, is a close relative of the gunk in Sugar Creek. And at the core of the writing meat machine is something sacred, which is an unwavering band of light.

"At the core of each person who reads this book is an unwavering band of light.

"My doorbell has just rung in my New York apartment. And I know what I will find when I open my front door; an unwavering band of light."

if you have not spent a few hours at this site, you should. it's pretty awesome in the original sense of the word: http://www.fusionanomaly.net/light.html

[channelfan]

my thoughts:

God is the light
we should walk in the light
we should let our light shine to others

i don't understand why people recognize and admit to a spirituality within us, realizing there is something beyond our physical existance, but try to explain it themselves, within their own mind. spirituality is beyond the mind so it doesn't make sense for man to look to himself for answers pertaining to spirituality.
man has become so proud and self-serving that they each attempt to develop their own personal religion and moral code, deciding for themselves what they should and shouldn't do. obviously this approach allows man to pick and choose what he wants to do, and what he feels he shouldn't do, basing their entire spirituality on their human mind and their worldly desires. no one wants to bow down to or be obedient to someone/something else because they would rather exalt themselves.

[staralfur]

thanks orbitone, i've been itching to know where that passage came from :)
channelfan, do you mean to say something's inherently very, very wrong with people who don't believe in a god? no hostility intended

[Edited on 6-30-2003 by staralfur]

[channelfan]

one thing that is inherently wrong with all mankind is that we sin. at some point in our lives we become able to discern right from wrong. from that point whenever we do wrong we are sinning. however, because God our creator realizes this in man, he developed a plan of salvation. an opportunity for us to receive forgivness for our sins, IF we truly repent, and turn away from these sins. the reason we have this opportunity is that Christ came to the earth, lived a life without sin, and gave himself as a sacrifice for mankind.

so, i would never look down on anyone who doesn't believe in God, but rather try and convince them that he does exist, so they might experience the same joy as i do in serving the one true God. Jesus said the greatest commandment is that we love God with all our heart, soul and mind. and the second is loving your neighbor as yourself (golden rule). is this extremely difficult? not really. why shouldn't man want to love his creator and share that love towards all mankind? wouldn't the world be a better place? the only reason people don't choose to do this is that they are selfish and are worldly minded. now, if one realizes a spirituality in life, something beyond this body, something intangible but definately there, a sort of enlightening, they usually come to the conclusion that you should gravitate towards love, gravitate towards the light (good) and away from the dark (evil). this is where many get but they can't get over the final hump of accepting the one true God and fully realizing the benefits of sharing his love with mankind. thats what i meant in my other post, i don't understand how some achieve this understanding of spirituality, but cannot accept God in their lives. instead they look inward and try to tell themselves that the source of spirituality is within themselves or within the world, trying to explain spirituality with a temporal mind.

[floating norman]

doesn't everyone decide for themselves whether their beliefs are "pre-packaged" or not? i have always wondered; if we all make our own moral codes, why can't we hurt people? why can't we kill people? why does everyone seem to agree that rape, murder, and the like are wrong? should those things be left to our own choice with no repercussions, and if not, why not?

[channelfan]

"This is all dependent on (a) believing there is some kind of creator and (b) believing that even if there is the story behind it tallies exactly with yours"

- any type of spirituality has to point to a creator/deity. thats why the majority of people believe there is a god. any type of evolution obviously cannot form anything but physical beings. "the story behind it" is not MY story or any other man's story, it's the truth of the inspired writings of the bible.

"I totally agree that people would do well, broadly speaking, to treat others as they would have others treat them but this is a perfectly acceptable moral principle which needn't have anything to do with any kind of religious creed. They don't have the monopoly on morals. "

- sure, its been established here already that many people choose their own morals. but if anyone is honest with themselves, truly honest, they cannot deny the perfect moral teachings of Christ (whether they believe in him or not). they all make sense and their is reason behind them all.

"Similarly I don't think there's anything arrogant about atheists and agnostics "picking their own" moral code because they are arrogant or don't want to abase themselves before God. We're actually taking the very difficult step of making these decisions for ourselves rather than accepting them pre-packaged from somebody else."

- difficult decisions? how difficult is it to tell yourself what you should and shouldn't do? like norman said, choosing your own morals basically amounts to doing anything you want to do.

by the way most athiests don't understand that athiesm is a religion. consider the meaning of religion: a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith.
atheism is a system of beliefs that you follow and pattern your life after. whether they admit it or not, an athiest is a 'religious' person.

(please remember i'm not attacking anyone personally, just discussing the topic)

[REM Speedwagon]

Originally posted by channelfan
i don't understand how some achieve this understanding of spirituality, but cannot accept God in their lives. instead they look inward and try to tell themselves that the source of spirituality is within themselves or within the world, trying to explain spirituality with a temporal mind.

If people do not believe in such a personal God it likely is because they have no evidence or feeling that such an external being exists. I went to Catholic school my whole life and was surrounded by that but never felt God come to me, as they say. That is not a choice, it's being open to something and finding it just didn't happen. It is not refusing God, it is just never feeling such a thing in the first place. Proving such things ends up being a tautology or whatever that word is. How do we know God exists? It says so in the Bible. How do we know the Bible is true? God said so (... in the Bible).

I do have spiritual feelings that are more pantheistic, where everything is part of one spiritual whole. I don't "try to tell myself" these things, as though I'm trying to convince myself of something nice (like, say, eternal life). It's just something I feel, and it is no more temporal than any other religious feeling. Maybe if I were raised in a strict religious family I'd call it Jesus because that's what I was taught to see it as. It's not a coincidence that people tend to practice the religion of their community / parents. That's how they've been taught to interpret religious feelings.

[channelfan]

"If the bulk of your beliefs are embodied in a book I suppose they are pre-packaged in that sense, aren't they? And if you decide to disregard some of them aren't you just as selective as secular people? "

- just want to clear this up. i never said they weren't prepackaged, i totally agree.
also, unlike denominational groups, true christians don't pick and choose. i do not disregard anything in the bible, i try to follow every part of Christs example and teaching.

thanks for the discussion

[staralfur]

thanks for the discussion

does this mean you're bowing out now, channelfan? i'm still reading..an intelligent and interesting conversation's such a slippery thing

[channelfan]

i'd be more than happy to carry on in this discussion through personal email, or on the thread, i just feel some people don't appreciate a big discussion of religion on a band message board. if anyone wants to email me, neutralmilk@lycos.com

[channelfan]

"How do we know God exists? It says so in the Bible. How do we know the Bible is true? God said so (... in the Bible). "

this is obviously not the only way that people determine God's existence. as i've stated before there are plenty of scientific evidences that the bible was inspired by an all-knowing diety. i mentioned a few of them in my earlier post on page 2 of this thread. also, many people see God in our earth, because there is design in everything on earth. which leads people to understand that there was a designer and creator. there is also a plethora of archeological and historical evidence that the bible was totally accurate. so hopefully you can see more accurately how people become to trust in the bible and in God. it's no paradox.

[hastycolours]

actually, ChannelFan, i was referring to the "do yourself a favour become your own saviour" line not the dont let the sun go down on your grievances song title and such.
the preceding piece to the full line is also another incredible thing "respect love of the heart over lust of the flesh"

(and when you wake up in the morning youll have a new feeling and youll find yourself appealing . dont let the sun go down on your grievances . sometimes you might wanna give up but keep that chin up cause your gonna find -SOMETIMES your gonna find
You might be alone, but dont feel lonely. dont let the sun go down on your grievances.
Start each day with a clean slate. You'll feel better, if you can shake off all that hate. And dont forget to forgive and foget.
and dont let the sun go down on your grievance

the amazing words of life

[channelfan]

"actually, ChannelFan, i was referring to the "do yourself a favour become your own saviour" line"

i think what daniel is saying here is simply to 'become' or 'be like' your savior, aka Jesus Christ.

"the preceding piece to the full line is also another incredible thing "respect love of the heart over lust of the flesh" "

this 'incredible' line is also right out of the teachings of Christ. in fact it is the basis of true Christianity:

Romans 13:14 But put on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make no provision for the flesh, to fulfill its lusts.

Galatians 5:16-17 I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh.
For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish.

Ephesians 2:3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.

1 Peter 2:11 Beloved, I beg you as sojourners and pilgrims, abstain from fleshly lusts which war against the soul,

1 Peter 4:2 that he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh for the lusts of men, but for the will of God.

1 John 2:16 For all that is in the world--the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life--is not of the Father but is of the world.

Matthew 5:43 "You have heard that it was said, "You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you.

Matthew 22:35 Then one of them, a lawyer, asked Him a question, testing Him, and saying, "Teacher, which is the great commandment in the law?"
Jesus said to him, ""You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.' This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like it: "You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets."

John 13:34-35 A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another; as I have loved you, that you also love one another. By this all will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another."

John 15:12 This is My commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you.

Romans 13:8 Owe no one anything except to love one another, for he who loves another has fulfilled the law.

1 Corinthians 16:14 Let all that you do be done with love.

Galatians 5:13 For you, brethren, have been called to liberty; only do not use liberty as an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another.

for more insight on the perfect love, read 1 Corinthians chapter 13 and 1 John chapter 4.

also, that whole excerpt from daniel's song you quote correctly as being "the amazing words of life" are all based on the teachings of Christ.
i've spoken to daniel on a few occasions, and also with his father, about religion and the teachings of Christ. Daniel grew up going to the same non-denominational church that i continue to be a part of, and as is evident in so many of his songs, he knows a lot about the teachings of Christ.

[Mirsathia]

Mmm....

Makes me glad I'm a Pagan. ^_^

[gomarilee]

i have been reading this LONG thread and i just think it's great that everyone is able to discuss this type of topic with patience and kindness.

i wanted to just throw in my two cents worth...

for those who are christians - we need to make sure we're christians for the right reason - this means we should not blindly "follow a book" - but we should study thoroughly. not just the bible, but other historical and religious documents and we shoud be honest with ourselves when coming to conclusions about these serious matters.

from my observations, channelfan is a good example of a christian who is not following blindly. he has obviously studied science, history and religion in depth from what i can see.

for those who are not christians, i believe you should do this same thorough research and be honest when looking at all sources, not excluding the bible, which is the highest selling book of all time, by the way, before you make your judgments and conclusions against christianity. :D

basically, i'm just trying to encourage everyone (christian and non-christian) to be honest and open-minded when studying these things. and if you haven't studied these things, maybe you should before you come to a conclusion.

i'm not saying anyone here has done otherwise, but i guess it's just a reminder to myself and anyone who thinks that makes sense! :P

[dannyincendiary]

i don't have the booklet in front of me, but jeff says something like
"a song for a new friend, a song for an old friend and now a song for jesus christ. and although it is not meant to have any direct religious connection it goes with the them of endless endless on this album and the belief that all living things seem to have a light within them that i see as eternal"
on "...aeroplane..."
i view his outlook as simply "spiritual," and he even directly says that the album is not connected to anyone religion (also as someone mentioned earlier he seems to have a large interest in buddhism as well as the obvious christian themes). anyways, the "endless endless"/"eternal light" theme is sort of to me the definition of spirituality, i.e. a spirit being something that is eternal and is not fully tangible like light.
in reference to the thread's original quote "when we break...god is a place"...'i sort of feel like he uses the term god in reference to the "eternal white light" and that his visions of spirituality are interchangable with the term god. "god is a place you will wait for the rest of your life"....i interpret his concept of life as not limited to our physical existance, and i think by this he means simply that "god" is with you beyond that. i'm rambling. more later.
-danny
p.s. this is my first post on this board, i'm a huge NMH fan. enough to say that jeff mangum is my favorite song writer and "aeroplane" is my all time favorite album.

[hastycolours]

no channelfan, its fairly logical and obvious he's stating 'figure it out for yourself', if really dont think he's referring to christ. but you obviously are deep in like with your religion so would assume the opposite of that obvious. your qeue now to respond with bible verses like a tele-evangelist, the one thing (the anatomy of a television evangelist) that would make christ so sick he'd vomit on his sandals.
im so sorry i had to play the stubborn role and respond to your post. the fact that this post has grown to this long length because of the people who think this man who made music, is practically their god, enough to disect a fourteen word sentence of his stated in music he made for his own happiness (rather than agree with is, or state simple 'yes this is my opinoin' as opposed to what HAs happened in this crazy posting) is just absurd. yes, laugh laugh a ha loo

[floating norman]

actually hasty,
most televangelists seem to be in it for the money, and that's why i don't like 'em. channelfan seems to represent someone genuinely searching for eternal life, and how could anyone fault him for that?

[channelfan]

thanks for your opinion, but i think you lost me along the way in this thread. read my initial posts about the lyrics and how each person interprets them their own way. in other words, the lyrics mean different things to different people. i definately expect you to see them in your own personal way, but i was never concerned about what jeff's actual meaning was behind the lines at the time he wrote them. for all we know they had no meaning, or the meaning has changed.

after discussing the lyric the entire subject turned more into a discussion of God in general and not the specified words jeff wrote. and for the record, i would never put any mortal man above God, and i don't think anyone on this board honestly sees jeff as a deity.

televangilist? its nothing like that. anyone can see they are not genuine. i'm simply offering scripture pertaining to the discussion, quoting the actual words of Christ, which i don't think would make him vomit.
i guess you could call me a 'bible thumper' or whatever other stereotypical tag you can think of, but not televangilist. in any case, i'll still label you as a friend, have a pleasant day:):D;):):D;)




[Edited on 7-30-2003 by channelfan]

[Freakboy]

I think we cant possibly interperet this, thats whats so great about jeff, he makes yo think. Ive had many times where i made up stories and loopholes and reasons becoming reasons with twin fetuses trying to eat a doorstalk and couldnt figure it out. but its good that way, its what sets him apart from the mainstream ppl like britney spears who turns your brain to mush. my brain is still mush but less so, so thanks with all my heart jeff your the shit

[hastycolours]

oh no no, channelfan, sorry to misinterpret a jump to negativity. What i was talking about was the daniel johnston song that i brought up (since I, like everyone else, managed to stray ridiculously far from the orignial topic)

I mentioned a line in the song, and you responded, thinking I was talking about a different line. I checked the passage you provided the chapter and verse to, seeing we were mixed up in what lines we were each referring to, and thats what my post was regarding. (the passage mentioning Christ saying something similar to the title of the song, the line i mentioned saying something that differed from it)
me mentioning the teleevangelists' actions to actually upsetting God wasNOT a comparison to you in anyway, or what you were saying. PLEASE dont think i would call you a bible thumper, something like that would actually upset me heheh:) I don't like it much when people are massively against things for (apparently) silly reasons. Like somenoes choice or reliigion for example. And I dont know where disagreeing became such a hard thing, and such an esoteric creating thing (i guess to put it with those words) but THAT is a subject relating to nothing but a branch, one i am beginning to build onto another subject. Okay yeah (keep the optimism!)

[Aiwa Chikara]

Anne Frank herself wrote that she believed that nature was God in itself. (Perhaps this was where Jeff came up with the lyrics that fueled this post.) Since we are part of nature, I believe Friend was correct in saying that we are PART of God. If you think about it, Creation recreates itself, and in this way Nature can indeed be the Creator. This can validify the statement "Whatsoever you have done unto the least of these, you have done unto me." Creation and Nature itself IS the white light that will stay with us even after we perish. Also, I think of Satan as basically all we regard to be evil (Temptation itself, really). As for Jesus, who ISN'T a child of God? I just think he is the most important of all of us, the one who founded our religion (for those of us who are Christians) by guiding us into a valid set of morals and values that will indeed save our souls.

[ImNoAndroid]

truthfully, im more curious about the whole anne frank idea. which nmh songs are about anne frank? i assumed that holland 1945 had some references, as well as oh sister and ghost... and who is this rose wallace goldaline? why does she show up in so many songs?? :o

[Aiwa Chikara]

I think all the songs are about Anne, or at least about the Holocaust, except "King of Carrot Flowers" parts 1-3. "In the Aeroplane over the Sea" talks about how life can really be wonderful in spite of death. She mentioned this a lot in her diary, and the song even mentions her name as well. "Two Headed Boy", to me, speaks about prejudice and a young boy being treated like a freak because he's different, and eventually dying - Like the European Jews were persecuted and killed during WWII. (Have you heard the song "Little Birds?" Another brilliant NMH song that addresses prejudice.) "Holland, 1945" is obvious, and I suppose "Communist Daughter" can tie in with the whole WWII theme as well. I think parts of "Oh Comely" talk about the hopelessness of being in a concentration camp, and it obviously mentions Anne's death as well. Parts of "Ghost" speak to me as a description of her spirit ascending into the clouds and living forever. "Two Headed Boy Part II" mentions a certain incident in which Anne cried as she kissed Peter Van Pels (the boy she was in hiding with) a few months before the hiding place was discovered.

I think if you read the diary, you might find some other things that I didn't catch that relate to this album.

[ImNoAndroid]

yeah i guess you're right. thats pretty cool, haha it makes me want to read anne frank's diary, and listen to ITAOTS even more... (haha not like i need a reason to listen to it.):P yeah little birds is such a weird song. it makes me sad sometimes so i have to be in the mood to listen to it. i really like it, though. jeff sings it with such conviction (as he does with pretty much all of his songs.) i wish nmh were back together. seeing them live would be an amazing experience.

[William]

"Little Birds" is about people persecuting people because of their differences. Mainly with Christians, and Homosexuals it seems.

I do feel like buying the Anne Frank diary now. I went to the Holocaust Museum in Washington, DC a couple of months ago. I would recomend it to anyone in the are to experience.

[ImNoAndroid]

i went to the holocaust museum when i was very young. it was an amazing, moving experience. i remember they had the childeren's section and the more mature section, and i remember finding the children section a lot more disturbing, because you would walk through a makeshift ghetto and hear recordings of people crying.

[ihavenoface]

the holocaust museum made me sick. It was disgusting, not in a bad way, but thinking about having that happen to you, and what they did to the little kids was sickening too.

[newartriotgirl]

Originally posted by muskogee
How can one prove that the reality is there is no God? I believe it would be much easier to prove that there is a Creator, based on the fact that there is a Creation. To say that there is a Creation without a Creator is to say that a fully-functioning house, watch, or car could be put together without a designer and manufacturer. Most people would agree that this reasoning is not logical. Yet looking at the magnitude of detail and function in our own bodies and on the earth and universe, some will say there is no design behind these things? I would need proof to believe that. As it is now, there is plenty of proof that there is a Creator.

but in the same respect, perhaps the creation was due to the highly controversial 'big bang' theory... who knows?

i'd just like to say that i think the siamese twins theory is beautiful :) and yes, very sweet... to think that we're forever searching for the one we were connected to so long ago.. it doesn't even seem incestuous... :)

[newartriotgirl]

Originally posted by channelfan
"This is all dependent on (a) believing there is some kind of creator and (b) believing that even if there is the story behind it tallies exactly with yours"

- any type of spirituality has to point to a creator/deity. thats why the majority of people believe there is a god. any type of evolution obviously cannot form anything but physical beings. "the story behind it" is not MY story or any other man's story, it's the truth of the inspired writings of the bible.

"I totally agree that people would do well, broadly speaking, to treat others as they would have others treat them but this is a perfectly acceptable moral principle which needn't have anything to do with any kind of religious creed. They don't have the monopoly on morals. "

- sure, its been established here already that many people choose their own morals. but if anyone is honest with themselves, truly honest, they cannot deny the perfect moral teachings of Christ (whether they believe in him or not). they all make sense and their is reason behind them all.

"Similarly I don't think there's anything arrogant about atheists and agnostics "picking their own" moral code because they are arrogant or don't want to abase themselves before God. We're actually taking the very difficult step of making these decisions for ourselves rather than accepting them pre-packaged from somebody else."

- difficult decisions? how difficult is it to tell yourself what you should and shouldn't do? like norman said, choosing your own morals basically amounts to doing anything you want to do.

by the way most athiests don't understand that athiesm is a religion. consider the meaning of religion: a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith.
atheism is a system of beliefs that you follow and pattern your life after. whether they admit it or not, an athiest is a 'religious' person.

(please remember i'm not attacking anyone personally, just discussing the topic)


i've always enjoyed using richey edwards' quote, "i know i believe in nothing, but it is my nothing"

this whole topic has reminded me of my little vacation i took to rhode island last weekend. i was staying with a highly religious family and they upset me so much. i know many many religious people who have very strong opinions, but at the same time, don't force them on others. This family, however, was not like that at all. They were constantly picking on me, and telling me that if I didn't have faith, then I had nothing at all in my life that was worthy of anything. They explained that it was wrong that their son was living with his girlfriend and that they weren't married. I explained that they are both 30 year old adults and that it is their choice whether or not they want to get married. I said as long as they are happy and in love, it shouldn't be looked at as a 'problem'.

We were driving back from some store and the woman I stayed with explained that the neighbourhood was becoming "full of gays" and that it was "sickening".. that it's wrong, disgusting, sinful, etc. She knows fully well that I lived with a lesbian for 2 years and that I absolutely detest homophobia. I wonder what she would have said had I told her that I'm in fact not straight or gay. I consider myself bisexual and I wonder if that would make me worth any less in her eyes. This kind of thinking saddens me. I respect her decision to practice the Catholic religion blindly (blind faith, to me, is never a good thing, but it's her choice to make, not mine) and I respect the enormous amount of respect she has for her faith and the church. I just wish she respected me enough to let me make my own choices and not condemn me for them once they are made. Not once did I ever attack her or argue with her. I was polite and listened to what she had to say. Unfortunately, she tried to 'correct' my way of thinking and way of living every chance she got.

[Garett Strickland]

As much as I love theological discussion, it was hard to muster the will to touch this topic, even with my 10-foot pole handy. There are some things I'd like to say, though.

First off, I want to commend everyone for not saying, "This is what the lyrics mean - period." No one should ever be so domineering and presumptuous as to rule out interpretation, especially in lyrics as open-ended as Jeff's.

I believe, personally, that Jeff's religion is existence. His being, in itself (as is evident from his lyrics and some things he's said in interviews) fills him with awe and wonder that he regards as transcendent and holy.

He combines Christ and reincarnation in his allusions to spiritualism, two dyamic and traditionally conflicting ideas - and he makes them his own.

Over the past few decades, the world of art and philosophy have done a lot to break down the influence of fundamentalist religious ideas in our culture, or counter-culture, at very least. Many would most likely claim that they destroyed the idea of God, in the process, given the large amount of atheists that have all but taken over the humanities, as a whole...

HOWEVER, Jeff and a few other artists (Godspeed You! Black Emperor comes to mind) have shown a kind of revival of spiritual conviction, or at least a striving for it.

We are in the midst of a new movement. We are beginning to pull away from the hopelessness and nihilism of atheistic post-modern thought, and have begun to construct, for ourselves, as individuals, a brand new religious world unfettered by the fundamentalism that has been broken down. We're taking its pieces and we're forming our own spiritual beliefs that are relativistic and post-modern, but not atheistic. Jeff Mangum is one of the first people I've seen do this, and it's inspiring.

Personally, I like to think that God (and the God Jeff is singing about) is in our relationship between our selves and our existence, and in existence, itself. The miracle is that we are here at all, regardless of whether you believe in creationism or the big bang theory or whatever else...

When you think about it, existence and life cancel out and render void all the nagging questions that they arise within us, in the first place. Why is that? Because existence and life is not a question, it's an answer, and that answer is a resounding 'YES!'. Yes, yes, yes! We are. And isn't that just amazing? What else do you need to know?

[outofstep23x]

Interesting. Alls I know is that that is probably my favorite song of all time.

[newartriotgirl]

Originally posted by Garett Strickland
When you think about it, existence and life cancel out and render void all the nagging questions that they arise within us, in the first place. Why is that? Because existence and life is not a question, it's an answer, and that answer is a resounding 'YES!'. Yes, yes, yes! We are. And isn't that just amazing? What else do you need to know?

I have to say. I've read a lot of your posts/replies. I've come to the conclusion that you are an incredible human being and very inspiring. Your writing moves me and I'd just like to thank you for being so wise and willing to share your thoughts.

[esme]

i agree :)

[newartriotgirl]

Originally posted by esme
i agree :)


{group hug}

*feels the love*

[Garett Strickland]

Aww, jeez. You make me blush!

Thank you for your kind words. It's nice to know people can find value in my opinions. It's moments like these that make me happy to be who I am.

[newartriotgirl]

Originally posted by Garett Strickland
Aww, jeez. You make me blush!

Thank you for your kind words. It's nice to know people can find value in my opinions. It's moments like these that make me happy to be who I am.

As you should be :) I think you're lovely :D

[newartriotgirl]

Originally posted by Garett Strickland
Aww, jeez. You make me blush!

Thank you for your kind words. It's nice to know people can find value in my opinions. It's moments like these that make me happy to be who I am.


As you should be :) Personally, I think you're rather lovely :D



ah crap i didn't mean to post twice!

[Edited on 6-7-2004 by newartriotgirl]